"The closest thing I know to the feeling at the end of a tragedy is the one that comes with the sudden, unexpected appearance of something beautiful"
-- Joe Sachs, scholar and translator of Aristotle.
-- Joe Sachs, scholar and translator of Aristotle.
Which of three plays we've read in the last two months best fulfills Joe Sachs' definition of the feeling at the end of a tragedy? Explain your response to this two parted question. I also invite you to nominate any film or book you've ever seen or read as a tragedy that offers the sudden, unexpected appearance of something beautiful.
AND...
Who best fulfills criteria for tragic hero?
Troy Maxson? Willy Loman? Tom Wingfield? You explain.
Troy Maxson? Willy Loman? Tom Wingfield? You explain.
58 comments:
In the quote of the essay that was talking about the sudden unexpected appearance of something beautiful, I think that it mainly reminded me of the book Fences. I thought about how Troy Maxsons controlling and narrowminded ways lead Cory to leave. It reminded me that once Cory left, Troy died and when Cory came back, he was a successful man and had a lot going for him... To me, the fact that Cory was so successful in life and to basically "stand up" to his dad, even now that he is dead, when he came back home, is the sudden unexpected appearance of something beautiful. I think that Corys triumph in life is what also takes part in making Troys death so bad, it makes the death seem less sympathetic towards him, because Corys sudden appearence shift the tone of the scene from full of sorrow to more peaceful and tranquil.
Right on, Marisol. (Your trucker handle can be GatesCrazyWhoo!.) It's true that Cory has reached some kind of peace -- some hope for the next generation -- but I wouldn't exactly say he has a lot going for him -- it's still a racist America.
What do you make of Gabe's dance?
And which figure do you think works as clearest tragic hero?
I think that the best character that fits the tragic hero role is Willy Loman because as I was reading wikipedia, a tragic hero "...has to be doomed from the start..." and in this case Willy was because he never had a steady and reliable job, always needed help. Also, it said that "he must've discovered his fate by his own actions..." and I also think that Willy is that because he knew that his life was done when Happys life failed and when he just couldn't support his family anymore.
Also, to add on to the tragedy with Happy, I think that in the end Willy finally realized that it might have been his fault as to why Happy didn't go to the University if Virginia. I think that it discouraged Happy when he saw his father with another woman and saw that instead of supporting his own family, he was supporting his lover. Furthermore, his flaw of not supporting his family emotionally and economically lead him to his death. Also, it said on wikipedia that the character might have "...suffered without the ability to change events happening to him...." I think Willy could have changed the events happening to him or could have avoided them for that matter. I think that he could have decided to not cheat on his wife and could have gotten to get a better job or taken the offers that were given to him. -Marisol Zapata 1st pd.
P.s. The first blog is also mine
I think that with Gabes dance it just shows how he's free to do as he pleases and doesn't have to worry about Troy being mad at him for leaving to another persons house. With Gabe's dance I think that even Gabe might feel a bit more free and I think that now Troy is dead, Gabe might feel appreciated becuase there is no one to neglect him, take advantage of him, or reject him like Troy did.
Of the three plays we've read in the last two months "FENCES" best responds to this statement. I feel this way because as I think about which play has an unexpected appearance of something beautiful would have to be "Fences". The fact that Rose is actually taking in Raynell, going to raise her as if she was her own, and thinking of Raynell as GOD's gift to Rose is a beautiful thing. Especially since Rose initially did not want to take her in when Troy first told Rose about his newborn daughter.
Then of course in comparison to the other plays, Death of a Salesman had a beautiful ending with Linda speaking at the funeral, but it was not totally unexpected because Linda always took up for Willy. When it comes to "The Glass Menagerie" the ending has nothing spectacular about it. It leaves the audience in the mind frame of "oh wow" Tom left.
-Rasheed D. Merrell
When thinking about whos fits the criteria for the tragic hero I would choose Willy Loman. I feel this way because Willy has the most distinct characteristics of being an Aristotelian tragic hero.
1) Willy is a noble character. You see he provides for his family and try to steer them in the road of success. That is one reason for him coming down on Biff so much.
2) Willy has a hamartia with his false image of himself. It seems that he definitely has an excess of mistakes because he always thinks of himself more highly than he should.
3) Willy's reversal of fortune was shown in the beginning as he forgot how to drive. As well as him not getting the job by Howard. Even though Howard's dad would have given Willy the job.
4) Willy realization of his own misfortune brought on by him is clearly shown as he commit suicide.
-Rasheed D. Merrell
Anahi
From the three plays we've read, I think that "Fences" is the play that most fufills Joe Sach's definition. I somewhat agree with Marisol and Ismael because at the end of the play we see how ironically Troy brings back the family. I say ironically because Troy was the reason why Cory Left, the reason why Reynell was born and the reason why Rose was hurt. Troy is also the one that bring them together. We see how Cory came back to see his mom, all grown up like a man, Lyons, Rose and Reynell reunites and becomes an unexpected appeaance of something beautiful. Even though Troy committed a big mistake in cheating on Rose, Reynell was born; a little beutiful girl that can represent a new growth and a new beginning. So I guess that Troys' death even though was a tragedy at the end brought beutiful things.
I agree with Marisol and Ismael about the character the best fits the definition of a tragic hero will be Willy Loma. Accoring to the Wikipedia definition, a hero has no be noble and must be physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often resulting in his death. I believe Willy was noble because he always wanted to provide for his family and wanted to be a role-model to his kids, especially Biff. Willy became lost little by little due to society's pressure to fufill their definition of successful. I think Willy was wounded by his experiences and led him to his own death. Even though he was noble for wanting to provide for his family, his views of becoming successful lead him to his own death.
Wow, everyones making good points... Just a quick addition.. has anyone seen the movie "running scared"? Well, through the movie you feel for the main character, hoping he doesn't get caught by the cops, and in the end his life and also his family are hanging by a thread. You end up believing he dies, and that he gave up his life to save his family. The family attends his funeral and drive off somewhere far south, and who else greets them at their house but the main character? They left that shady life of theirs, since he was an undercover fbi agent. So he had to die in order to live peacefully with his family. I think that somewhat relates to this?
-Ethan
I have to say that i agree with Marisol. The qoute just sums up the relationship between Cory and Troy. Out of every bad thing there comes something good. To me, troy was like a pain in the ass. he was alwats fussing about how he didn't want Cory playing football. Any reader could understand that Troy was afraid of Cory succeeding. He was afraid that Cory would be more than a garbage lifter, driver, or any type of AandP worker. Cory and Troy relationship was like baseball. A small ball bing hit by a tremendous force, Troy. Cory finally got the strength to stand up to Troy and were happy. The next time we seen Cory he was wearing a marine uniform. I think that that was a good author choice because it showed that no matter what Cory did, he would always end up more successfeul that his father.
LATESHA JOHNSON
Hmmmm.... lets see. The play that best fulfills that quote, would be, well I'd say, Death of a Salesman. First, let me explain what I think the quote means. I think it just means that we are in utter shock, thats all. Think about it, when we are witnessed to something sudden, unexpected and beautiful, we are in shock. Like whoa! Same after a tragedy, it is just so shocking, your pet dies and its shocking. OH MY GOD!!! shocking. So yes, at the end of death of a salesman, i was like "OH MY GOD" he killed himself. In Fences Troy kills himself, but it is not much of a shocker as the death in death of a salesman. Its just that I didn't expect Willy to off himself that sudden and in that way. It was just all shocking. Thats what I think at least.
The part that i think adds every up is "pity an fear arises most of all where wonder does". Because fear is one of the main drives for all of the characters Willys was fear of not being succesful lead him to his lies and Tom's fear was staying with his mother and sis ter all his life wondering about what he could have done and thats what cause him to act his fear of doing nothing with his life lead him to leave them behind. I think that troys fear was that his son cory would also be a victim of racism and his actions were just based on the fear of his sons dreams being shatered. There is nothing that can deny that fear is one of the largest motivators.
Kevin Rong
I think "Fences" is a best play that fulfills the quote “the closest thing I know to the feeling at the end of a tragedy is the one that comes with the sudden, unexpected appearance of something beautiful." I agree with Rasheed that Raynell is represents something unexpected appearance of something beautiful in the play because Rose states that Raynell is a gift given by the God. Although Troy died at the end of the play, he brought Raynell to the world to continue his life. Like Anahi said Raynell represents a new growth and a new beginning.
Well i think that the book that fulfills is "Death of a Salesman." I really enjoyed this book as it offered to me hardships that many individuals endure in their lifetime. At the end of the play, even though Willy Loman died, it was a beautiful thing because the "False american dream" that he was searchign for was finally over and new blossoms occured. I agree with Ethan. I've also seen "running scared" and the ending of that movie offers us something beautiful as we find out that the FBI agent didn't really die.
-Allen Govea
Kevin Rong
I think Willy Loman is characterizes as a tragic hero in the play because he meets the characteristics or traits of an Aristotelian tragic hero. He is noble to his family because he always try to provide his family and try to make both of his sons to be successful. He also suffer more than he deserves and he physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences resulting in his death. Willy receives alot of pressure from his ruthless society because the society expects everyone to be successful. He become deluded by their superficial dreams that he will do anything to meet the expectation of the society and ultimately leads to his own destruction or demise.
I agree with Allen. I think that "Death of a Salesman" fulfills the beautiful ending section. I, too, have seen "Running scared and agree with both Allen :D and Ethan on this one.
-Jairo Villalobos
I think that Troy Maxson best fulfills the criteria for tragic hero because he was portrayed as a strong, optimistic, and vulgar person that was finally defeated by death after using his confidence and witty tactics (the fence itself) to set the boundary of life and death. (Death being outside the fence and the family staying together alive on the household side.) Along with the tragic death of Troy, the play ends with an unexpected turn of events. You can't blame Troy for his cruel and malicious child-raising because he had established this type of behavior because of his childhood. Of course, Troy wasn't the best father figure, but he still was prominent in his responsibility which is certainly the opposite of abandonment which he could have done. To have for the least part, his son Cory return home as a Marine shocks everyone as well giving Troy's death significance because Cory could've pursued Football or continue to try. This shows a sign of respect, discipline, and most of all obedience to Troy; no matter how much Cory disliked his decisions. Like Marisol, when he (Cory) came back home, it is the sudden unexpected appearance of something beautiful. Then, what was also unexpected was Rose's talk with Cory reminding him who he is after neglecting being like Troy, ("You can't be nobody but who you are, Cory") and then says, "I'm gonna do her just like your daddy did you... I'm going give her the best of what's in me." Therefore, Troy's words and way of raising a child continues. This makes the tragedy of Troy more a tragic pleasure because he is displayed as a human image in the eyes of Rose (Troy's wife). I would like to nominate the film "The Perfect Storm" as it depicts the story of 6 fishermen trying to survive a perilous storm overseas and fail to do so, but in the end leaves behind rememberance, hope, and prosperity as their voices are heard from their loved ones giving them something to be alive for.
Andres
I think that Troy is the tragic hero. He was doomed from the start, honestly, because he was black. He was treated cruely and unfairly since the day he was born. He discovered his fate by his own actions. Everything that happened in the play happened because he had an attitude. He had Raynell, which caused the total breakdown of Rose and Cory left completly. He tore his family apart little by little every chance he got, and they didn't get back together until he was gone.
I think that "Fences" is the play that can relate to Joe Sachs quote. After Troy's death, Cory gets a better understanding of who he is. He becomes aware that he is his father and that that's not something he should try to escape. Through most of the play, Cory feared his father and when he stood up to him, the fear was gone but you could sense a form of hatred from Cory towards Troy. It's through the death of Troy that Cory accepts his father and gets a better understanding of who he was as a person. There's a gap in the relationship between Troy and Cory that is finally closed with Troy's death.
I was thinking that "Death of a Salesman" might work well with the quote, but it's Troy and Cory's relationship that surpasses what I considered to be beautiful in the play. After Willy's death, it seems that Willy found who he was, of course he was gone, but we were finally able to see the rest of the characters recognize that Willy was not a salesman but rather someone who'd be better suited to work with his hands. Also, Linda's speech at his grave was moving.
In "The Glass Menagerie", Tom's departure was expected after the way his mother treated him but from my reading, I think that the beautiful aspect of the play's ending dealt with Laura and how when she was talking to her mother she smiled and I took the blowing out of candles as something symbolic of her getting rid of the insecurity she had. Tom leaving would allow Laura to stand up to her mother by herself, unlike before, when Tom would help out.
The play that best fit the quote's description would be "Fences." I do agree with willyfnwonka that it was a shock to see Willy die in "Death of a Salesman," and in "Fences" Troy's death wasn't much of a shocker because one can only fight with death for so long that eventually, he was going to die trying. However, both plays seemed as if the main characters that died, Willy and Troy, were tempted by their fate and soon enough not able to withstand. In the end of "Fences", Gabe gives an inspirational moment (dance) of enlightment that there was something miraculous happening. Something spiritual or powerful which the gates of heaven were opened. Something unexpected, therefore beautiful to be of witness.
i think that the best one that fits the tragic hero is willy. he tried to do whats best for the family but did he did not realize he was hurting the family.he ended dead by doing his own actions. he meant no harm to the family.
nancy
i think willy is the one that is most defined as a tragic hero because he was noble, he never meant harm and without realizing he caused harm to his family.as a tragic hero he ended dead.he was the leader of the family.his family still ended admiring him.
i think that the best one that fits the tragic hero is willy. he tried to do whats best for the family but did he did not realize he was hurting the family.he ended dead by doing his own actions. he meant no harm to the family.
nancy
As for the tragic hero, Willy definetely fulfills the criteria. The one characteristic that reminded me so much of Willy was Hamartia and the exxagerated self pride. Willy Loman always talked about how he was well liked and how great of a salesman he was, but in reality, he wasn't. It was his own pride that led to him losing his job, losing Biff's love and respect and ultimately to his own death. As Marisol had mentioned, Willy was pretty much doomed from the start, his pride would lead him to his demise. Pride leads to the end.
-Cindy Agustin
I'm not sure if i'm interpreting the quote right, but I think the person means to say that for every tragic ending, we feel this sense of relief and cleanse. Tragic catharsis pretty much says that we desire the thrill for fear or pity. These are emotions we don't really like because of the pain that goes with it, but somehow, our body feels the need to express these emotions. Since it's quite difficult to control these raging emotions, we are appealed to horror and sad movies. The tragic ending of the movies trigger us to let out these emotions of fear and pity. We feel relieved and satisfied in the end so maybe that's the "something beautiful" the guy is referring to? The relief of being able to emotionally feel and react to something. The unexpected part of it is that you become surprised that you feel relief after such tragedy.
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I think Willy Loman best fulfills the criteria for a tragic hero.
"Hero must be doomed from the start, but bear no responsibility for possessing his flaw." Willy is a vulnerable and an insecure guy because he doesn't meet society's expectations of being successful. He acts all proud and arrogant to possess more authority and gain respect. Also, by speaking with such tone, his self-esteem is boosted and he feels less insecure about himself. Society causes individuals like Willy Loman to go into denial and lose their dignity. Based on the author's portrayal of Willy, we are able to see how Willy is doomed in the beginning. Society is at fault for his condition so this makes him a step closer to being a tragic hero.
"Hero must suffer more than he deserves." I felt sympathetic for Willy throughout the play. Although he wasn't the friendliest guy, there was something that made me feel sorry for him. I don't blame him for how he acts towards his family because he, himself, is actually a victim. Willy was too obsessed with success that it drove him kind of crazy in a subtle way. "Hero must be physically or spiritually wounded by his experiences, often resulting in his death." He suffered physically and mentally living, and even when dead, none of his so-called friends attended his funeral. I was like "Awww, poor guy." I seriously think that it wasn't right for him to go through all the struggles even til the day of his death. "Hero must be noble in nature, but imperfect so that the audience can see themselves in him." I think it's kind of clear that we can see ourselves in Willy. The guy is lost, and at times, we are too. We have our own obsessions that might leads us in wrong directions. Willy lacks help and guidance. Everyone has been in his situation where they need guidance as well.
-Annie Truong
Among all three of the characters, I believe that Fences ended in the most beautiful tragedy. In the Glass Menagerie, Tom gained a sense of freedom after finally leaving his home; but the tone of the story seemed like regret (for leaving his sister). In the Death of a Salesman, Willy Loman made a decision to kill himself in order to provide for his family; but it seems as if providing for them in the best way he could still didn't bring his family closer together. In Fences, Troy Maxson was responsible for pushing his family further apart, but he was also responsible for making a great man out of Cory without force. At first it seemed as if he was trying to control Cory's life, but after Troy past away Cory became the man that his father would've been more than proud of. The author also doesn't create a devastating death scene for Troy; his passing has connotations of growth/new beginnings.
To comment on the tragic hero, I definitely believe that Willy Loman holds this description. Willy suffers more than he deserves because he's a failure to society in that he can't support his own family or hold a job. He believes that his fate is to kill himself to finally provide for his family, and this shows his nobility to his family. In turn his imperfection is clear to the audience because he betrays his wife and family for a another woman. Due to his failure in life, this causes a ripple of failure (according to society) in his family; showing his leadership role. His decision to decide his own fate and kill himself was apart of accepting his mistakes and learning from them. And to solve his family's issues, this was the solution he created.
I think that "running scared" is a great referral when it comes to this question nobodyxlll. Willy Loman felt that in his heart dieing would be the solution to put and end to his familys debt and worries. The difference in the situations in the movie and in the book is that I don't believe that the family lived happily ever after when Willy died, but obviously that's the case for the fbi agent in the movie. The family's house was finally paid up and it seemed as if things were just beginning to turn around, but the main man who worked hard to keep everything together for so long was gone.
I believe the story that the ending had changed the feeling we had. The play that made us regain hope after thinkin that it was all done and ppl were goin to die alone. The play is "fences" because i had no idea cory was goin to return to see his fathers funeral i thought when they had the fight that would be the last of both of them. I was shocked but happy that cory had forgivin his dad. That troy could rest in peace. The "bitter sweet ending" meaning that it was sweet that cory was back but said that troy was gone. The ending after having just a troubled beginand middle made me changed my mood alot. So over all i think "fences" did the better job when it came to an unexpected beauty. cesar aka cubs killa
I believe Troy fits the tragic hero roll better then anyone. I think by he being the way he was with cory mean and jealous made cory grow up as a man faster yes but made his strongeer not having to really on anyone. So troys bad behavior lend to a somewhat good thing with cory. At first the results seemed like was for cory and troy not to speak nor see each other again. So cory with help or just because he was the bigger man decided to to forgive his dad because he knows deep inside that Troy did what he did for a reason. So troys crasy ways were worth it..
cesar
I think the play that best fulfills Sachs' definition is "Fences." Raynell came out of a tragedy; a betrayal of a husband to his wife. It was unexpected for the girl to turn out so well when there were many things against her. Also Cory returns once Troy has passed away. Its beautiful to see that he did something with his life and sure he still faces racism but he took the steps toward becoming a success. He used the mistreatment from his father to make him a better man. We sympathize with him for not going 2 the funeral... he finally needed closure and to stand up to his dad.
-Diane Zaldua
THE QUOTE ABOUT THE APPEARANCE OF SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL BEST FITS FENCES. TROY SPENT ALL HIS LIFE BEING HELD DOWN. HE WASN’T ALLOWED TO BE SUCCESSFUL. THAT’S WHY HE FOCUSES SO MUCH ON BASEBALL. IT’S ALSO THE REASON WHY HE DOESN’T ALLOW CORY TO PLAY FOOTBALL. HE WANTS HIM TO BE DONE RIGHT. HE DOESN’T WANT CORY TO SPEND ALL HIS LIFE FOCUSING ON BECOMING A FOOTBALL PLAYER AND THEN HAVE NOTHING TO SHOW FOR IT BECAUSE THE WHITE MAN DOESN’T THINK COLORED PEOPLE SHOULD PLAY SPORTS AND BE SUCCESSFUL. THE PROBLEM IS THAT TIMES ARE CHANGING AND TROY CANT. HE HAS THIS SET OPINION OF THE WORLD. TROY, AS CORY PUT IT, HAS NOTHING, NOT EVENT THE HOUSE BECAUSE GABE’S MONEY PAID FOR IT. HE DIES AND WE ALL ARE SAD THAT HIS TIES WITH HIS FAMILY ARE BROKEN. I GUESS THE BEAUTIFUL PART COMES WHEN CORY GET ACQUAINTED WITH RAYNELL. TOGETHER, THEY BOTH SING THE SONG TROY USED TO SING. THAT SCENE IS TRULY BEAUTIFUL, INHERENTLY BEAUTIFUL. AS FOR GABES DANCE, I THINK IT SHOWS HOW THE FAMILY IS STILL GOING TO FACE RACISM BUT WHEN THEY USE WHAT THEY HAVE, THEY’LL COME THROUGH. LIKE, ALL TROY WANTED WAS TO HAVE SOMETHING TO SHOW FOR HIS LIFE. HE COULDN’T MAKE IT IN BASEBALL SO HE USED WHAT HE HAD, HIS MUSIC. FOREVER STRONGER THAN ALL, CFH.
SDMF – CHICAGO CHAPTER
AS FOR THE OTHER STORIES, WE ARE JUST LEFT WITH SADNESS. NOTHING BEAUTIFUL. WILLY KILLS HIMSELF AND THE FAMILY IS ARGUING. LINDA IS LEFT ALL ALONE AND WE LEARN THAT HAPPY IS NOT WHAT HE SAYS HE IS. WERE NOT EVEN SURE IF BIFF GOT THE INSURANCE MONEY. IN A TRAGIC CATHARSIS, IT ENDS IN WONDER AND IS BEAUTIFUL. IT ENDS IN WONDER BUT LIKE I SAID EARLIER, THERES NOTHING BEAUTIFUL ABOUT THAT ENDING. NOW FOR THE GLASS MENAGERIE, YOU CAN SAY THE SAME THING. TOM LEAVES TO BECOME WHAT HE WANTS AND HE IS TORMENTED BY THE FEELINGS HE HAS FOR HIS FAMILY, LAURA. HE CANT FORGET ABOUT HER. NO MORE CANDLES. JUST LIGHTNING. FOREVER STRONGER THAN ALL, CFH.
SDMF - CHICAGO CHAPTER
I feel that "fences" best responds to this beauty statement out of the three weve read.I think Raynell is an unexpected appearance of something beautiful in the play.I think the existence of Raynell is a symbolic of new growth and new beginning that Troy brought to the world.
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I think Willy Loman from “death of a salesman” totally fulfills the criteria as a tragic hero, and I agree with the points that marisol made.
-BrIaN-
I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT TOM BEST FITS THE CRITERIA FOR A TRAGIC HERO. A TRAGIC HERO HAS TO HAVE A FLAW. TOM HAS HIS MOVIES. WILLY HAS HIS FIXATION WITH BEING WELL LIKED AND TROY HAS HIS STUBBORNESS AND HYPOCRISY. TO BE A TRAGIC HERO, THE CHARACTER ATTEMPTS TO DO THE RIGHT THING BUT THE RIGHT THING CANNOT BE DONE. TOM WANTS TO BECOME SOMEONE AND IT FORCES HIM TO ABANDON HIS FAMILY (HE CANT REALLY BE HAPPY – HE STILL GOES TO THE MOVIES EVEN WHEN HE TELLS JIM HE HATES HOW PEOPLE LIVE IN FANTASY). WILLY HAS TO ACCEPT BIFF BUT NEVER REALLY TRIES TO. HE STILL IS FIXATED ON THAT SUCCESS PART. HE KILLS HIMSELF TO MAKE BIFF LOOK BETTER THAN BERNARD BECAUSE HE IS SURE HIS SUICIDE WILL GIVE BIFF SOME MONEY. TROY HAS TO LET CORY DO WHAT HE WANTS WITH HIS LIFE BUT SCREWS HIM OVER WITH THE FOOTBALL DEAL AND THEIR RELATIONSHIP CEASES TO EXIST AFTER THIS HUGE FIGHT WHERE CORY SWINGS THE BAT AT HIS FATHER. LIKE WILLY, TROY DOESN’T ATTEMPT TO DO THE RIGHT THING. WE DO FEEL SORRY FOR ALL THE CHARACTERS THOUGH. NONE OF THEM DESERVED WHAT THEY GOT. TOM DESERVED TO LIVE HIS OWN LIFE. WILLY DESERVED TO BE SUCCESSFUL AND TROY DESERVED TO PLAY PROFESSIONAL BASEBALL. THE PROTAGONIST HAD TO CREATE SYMPATHY (ALL OF THEM DID BECAUSE THEY DIDN’T GET WHAT THEY DESERVED) BUT THEY ALSO HAD TO BE DOOMED FROM THE START. TOM WAS DOOMED. HIS “LIBERATION” MEANT ABANDONING HIS FAMILY, WHO CANNOT ACCEPT REALITY (LAURA LIVES IN A WORLD OF FANTASY WITH HER GLASS MENAGERIE AND AMANDA CANNOT ACCEPT THAT SUCCESS ISNT EVERYTHING). WILLY REALLY WASN’T DOOMED FROM THE START. HE COULDVE GOTTEN A JOB WHERE HE WAS ABLE TO USE HIS HANDS, THE THING HE WAS GOOD AT (HE FIX THE STEPS AND PUT UP A NEW ROOF). INSTEAD, HE FORCED THIS ROLE ON HIMSELF. TROY WAS DOOMED BECAUSE OF THE RACIST AMERICA. THERES NO ARGUING THERE. TOM FIT ALL OF THESE CRITERIA PERFECTLY. THE LAST ONE I WANT TO POINT OUT IS HOW THE TRAGIC HERO SHOULD BE LIKE A KING WHERE HIS DOWNFALL LEADS TO HIS PEOPLE FALLING AS WELL. TROYS FAMILY COULD MANAGE WITHOUT HIM. ROSE HELPED TROY SURVIVE. SHE GAVE HIM STRENGTH. SHE IS A STRONG WOMAN AND CORY MADE A MAN OUT OF HIMSELF. SAME THING CAN BE SAID ABOUT WILLYS FAMILY DESPITE THE FACT THAT EVERYONE IS IN MOURNING. THE HOUSE IS PAID FOR AND LINDA HAS HER CHILDREN, BIFF AND HAPPY, EVEN IF THEYRE NOT THE BIG PEOPLE THEY CLAIM TO BE. TOM FITS THIS CRITERION. HIS FAMILY LIVES IN FANTASY AND CANT MEND FOR THEMSELVES. IF HE LEAVES, HIS FAMILY SUFFERS; BUT HE HAS TO LEAVE AND SO THERE REALLY ISNT A HAPPY ENDING. TOM IS THE TRAGIC HERO. FOREVER STRONGER THAN ALL, CFH.
SDMF – CHICAGO CHAPTER
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. When it comes to Joe Sach's statement, I believe that all of the plays respond to it quite well and I have not determined which play does it best. I see beauty in all of the plays in the falling action and in the final scene. In DOAS, I saw it in the scence when Biff busts out with the rubber tubing on the table and confronts Willy about it. I saw so much passion in biff when he wouldn't let willy get away. He's yelling at him, accusing him, and even physically forces him around all to get the point across that, even though willy is a phony shit ball, he still loves him. Also in DOAS, when the family gathers at the funernal, Biff is by linda's side helping her through loss of Willy. Both of those scenes show a beautiful display of a son's passion for his parents even with their extreme flaws. In GM, I saw beauty in Laura giving away her glass and later her blowing out the candles as a tremendous act of strength and gives me hope for her life without Tom. In Fences, I was immersed in the beauty of Rose's choice to take care of Troy's baby. I found that to be an amazing effort to sustain a child's innocence. The other instance is when Rose explained who croy is and how he is troy and her but ultimately he's himself. When it comes to who the tragic hero is out of troy tom and willy, i would say its Willy.
- Gabriel Getto
In response to "It's me". I really don't think the ending of "Death of a Salesman" is as plain as you think. First off, what about te beauty of him finding out his son really loved him. Eventhough it's not the exact end, it plays an important part of concluding it. A father finally feeling the love of his son is something beautiful.
I believe that the only play that had a beautiful outcome at the end was "The Glass Menagerie" by Tennessee Williams. Tom had left his home in a fit of anger but then when he was out in the world without his sister he felt remorse for what he had done, causing us the audience to sympathize with him.
I guess Fences would relate to this quote better than the other plays we have read. The others didn't give as positive an image at the end. What could be more positive/ beautiful than the gates of heaven opening up for the tragic hero? To see that, in the end, it did pay off? This doesn't happen for Willy Loman or Tom.
Willy is DEFINITELY a tragic hero because he suffers, he’s noble (he provided for his family no matter what), he’s doomed from the start, it’s a society that we can relate to, and he is so wounded with this experience that he kills himself.
EVelyn says:
also believe that "Fences" best somes up the quote and the idea of having a beatiful ending after a tragedy. Throughout the book we see how Troy is holding
Cory back and the audience doesn't like him for it. Troy is sort of mean spirited and does things without thinking of anyone else and only to fulfill his own selfish desires. Even after we're left feeling completely disgusted with Troy , it seems as though his death has brought the family together. In the end,
Cory learns to accept his father and to realize he only wanted to protect him. We would think that Troy 's adultery would further disconnect the family but in the end it brought the family together and added a new beautiful addition, Raynell. So after all the turmoil, betrayal, and entrapment, in the end we are left with a sense of renewal and acceptance.
EVelyn didn't say this, but Levine did:
How is "Running Scared" a tragedy? it's not, right? It's a comedy.
I believe the play "fences" best fulfills Joe sachs definition of the feeling at the end of a tragedy because when the character troy died you felt the pain his family were going through and at the same time happiness that troy doesn't verbal abusive them anymore they can just recover and move on with their lives
WHEN I READ THIS QUESTION THE FIRST PLAY THAT CAMES TO MIND IS FENCES. I THINK THAT THE FACT THAT CORY WAS IN THAT ARMY AND THAT HE WAS ABOUT TO BECOME MARRIED REALLY SWITCHES UP THE STORY. WHEN WE SEE TROY MISTREATING CORY WE IMMEDIATLY THINK THAT CORY IS GOING TO BECOME LIKE IS FATHER OR AT LEAST FAIL. BUT CORY DIDNT LET HIS FATHERS ACTIONS BRING HIM DOWN EVEN WHEN HIS FATHER DECIDED NOT TO SIGN THE FOOTBALL PAPER. ALSO THE FACT THAT ROSE DECIDED TO TAKE CARE OF RAYNELL. SHE DIDNT MISTREAT HER SHE TREATED HER AS IF SHE WAS HER OWN. ALSO WHEN CORY TOLD ROSE THAT HE WASNT GOING TO TROYS FUNERAL SHE TOLD HIM THAT HE WAS. ROSE EXPLAINED TO CORY THAT TROY WAS A GOOD FATHER AND THAT SHE WOULD USE THE SAME METHOD THAT TROY USE ON HIM TO TRAIN RAYNELL. IF THATS NOT AND UNEXPECTED APPERANCE OF SOMETHING BEAUTIFUL THEN WHAT IS. THIS JUST SHOWS THAT THROUGH IT ALL FAMILIES CAN STICK TOGETHER. CORY LEFT AND RETURNED BUT HE WASNT THE SAME CORY THAT LEFT HE WAS A MEN TRAINED MAN. HE CAME TO PAY HIS RESPECTS. BUT INSTEAD OF TRING TO ARGUE WITHHIS MOTHER IN FRONT OF RAYNELL HE DECIDED TO BE A ROLE MODEL. SO IN A WAY HE WASNT LIKE HIS FATHER.
I THINK THAT TOM FULFILL THE CRITERIA FOR A TRAGIC HERO. TOM WAS TRING TO PROVIDE FOR HIS FAMILY AND HIMSELF. HE WAS UNDER SO MUCH PRESSURE BY HIS MOTHER. YET AND STILL HE MANAGED TO FULFILL HIS DUTIES ESPECIALLY WITH NO MALE INFLUENCE AROUND HIM. THAT FACT THAT TOM WALK OURT ON HIS FAMILY I DONT THINK THAT IT MAKES HIM ANY LESS OF A MAN. ITS NOT LIKE HE DOESNT KEEP IN TOUCH AND STILL TRY TO PROVIDE FOR HIS FAMILY. HE JUST GOT TO THE PIONT WHERE HE COULD NO LONGER TAKE THE RIDICULE THAT HIS MOTHER WAS DISHING OUT TO HIM. TOM NEEDED TO FIND HIMSELF. HE DID EVERYTHING THAT HIS MOTHER ASKED. HE EVEN TRIED TO FING HIS SISTER A GENTLEMAN CALLER. IF THATS NOT LOYALITY THEN WHAT IS.
I beleive that Fences best connects with Joe Sachs idea that with Tragedy Beauty arises....i beleive that although Troy did alot of bad things to his family and he never learned from his mistakes...Raynell was a product of his mistake of cheating on Rose with Alberta. Overall i beleive that Raynells birth is the beauty that came along with all of the tragedy surrounding TROY and his family. Raynells birth is what i beleive ultimately saves Cory because if he didnt find out about his fathers affair he would have stayed in his house and been the next tragic hero. I also have to disagree with *!*itsME*!* because i dont really beleive that Willy realized that he was doing any wrong. I beleive that he killed himself only for himself to feel he helped out Biff be successful !! Willy never realized that following in the footsteps of Ben was a mistake and this is what ultimately led im to do wat he did !
Of all three plays we've read this far Willy Loman seems like the best example of a Tragic Hero. he tried to provide for his family, but he lost himself in the process.
And as for Running Scared...
I'm not talking about the 1986 version with Gregory Hines and Billy Crystal. I'm talking about the 2006 movie staring Paul Walker.
-Ethan
....
the quote mentions an unexpected appearance of something beautful... it makes me think about the book Fences... in the end Troy does die but also brings Cory back. With Cory's return it brings the good news that he has now become a successful marine man...although he did not show it to his father he knew his father would be proud. This event shows how even when things are bad there is always something good to come hand in hand with it.
I feel WIlly fills the seat for a tragic hero. he does a good job in showing how he wanted to be so successful in life but felt it to be so difficult because he couldnt do as much as he could before. In the end he did kill himself because he knew that his trying was useless... and he did take it on for a long time even though he had his errors like any person...
I agree with Marisol on the whole tragic hero thing. I also agree with rasheed. He mad some very good points. I believe that Willy would have turned his life in a completle different direction had he known what he was really doing to himself. Willy caused himself more issues than a little bit. I dont quite see Willy as comlpletly nobel but he certainly gave himself more than many others would have. (even though that was more of the reason for his demise.)
The quote reminds me more of Fences. Throughout the play, it seemed that so much was lost to many of the characters but in the end more was gained that gave them more of something to almost look forward to. Troy cheated on Rose and in the end, he ended up dying but leaving Rose with a beautiful baby girl. Even after troy died, cory came back with good news of success.
How about this as a thought:
Maybe none of these characters are even good enough to be a tragic hero. Or bad enough...(tragic enough) Modern tragic hero yes. All of them are modern tragic heroes, But to argue that one of them is a tragic hero is to argue hollow.
"He may die without an epiphany of his destiny, or suffer without the ability to change events that are happening to him." - Modern tragic hero.
According to that, they are all modernistic tragic heroes, right? In all the plays, there is this sense of not being able to escape. Even though Willy died, the dreamer is gone, but the dream still lives, his sons, well happy at least. In the glass managerie, Tom was leaving, but even though, he still couldn't forget his family, they, especially his sis, were in his mind. In Fences, troy died and all, but rose even said that cory was troy. A cycle of continuity: never being able to escape the whim of our fathers. At least thats why I think all of these characters are modern tragic heroes.
Joe Sachs quote is best seen in "Fences" as at the end we see the beauty in the relationship of Troy and Cory. Considering that Cory left after his arguement with Troy, it was unexpected to see him come back and even attend the funeral after initially refusing to go. Cory realizes that as much as he despised Troy for not letting him do what he wanted and for how he treated him, he cannot escape the fact that he is like him and that he can attribute his success to him. There is also the relationship that develops between Cory and Raynell as Troy's affair was what cause Cory to go off on him and let to his departure. Here we see the harmony that has been achieved and is where the beauty also comes in the play.
As for Death of a Salesman while the funeral scene has some beauty with Linda's speech we are left with how Willy even in his final moments could not stop thinking about success as he thought money was going to make Biff better than Bernard. I think that Willy best fits the criteria of a tragic hero as his desire for success led to his demise. He had a decent life but always put so much emphasis on success that it lead to Biff distancing himself from him when he found out of the affair and the falseness of the American Dream.
I believe that the play "Fences" best fits Joe Sachs's definition of a beautiful tragedy. Throughout the novel we are introduced to Troy's history and his struggles with rascism which led to his embitterment towards the whites and his overprotection of Cory in an attempt to set him towards the right path. However Cory was a bit detached from his history because he believed that his father and his theories based on his history were a bit old fashioned because to him times were changing, thus his conversation with his dad about negro players being integrated into the leagues...So i guess the tragedy comes from both the death of troy's empathetic character and a bit from Cory's lack of acceptance for his history and culture which through the death of his father and through the song he sang...he was able to acknowledge his history and culture and unite bacak with his family, thus he sings with raynell and attends his father's funeral.
As for tragic hero, i would say that Willy Loman is most definately the best candidate. I mean his name alone destinated him to failure LOman. According the characteristics the tragic hero has to arouse fear or and empathy. Willy loman is very empathetic as he is trying to achieve an unattainable "american dream." The fear comes from us as we come to the realization that maybe our dreams are like willy's and that like willy they might lead to our demise. Another characteristic is that the character has to suffer more than he deserves...and well i think willy suffered much in coming to the relization that his children whom he counted on for growth and prosperity, whom he worked to teach them how to be successful, they failed on him.
In my mind, "Fences" best fits Joe's quote of a tragedy being beautiful in the end. When Troy died, things seemed to progress with his family. His daughter, a symbol of a new beginning was healthy and beautiful. Rose chose to take care of her, and not leave her abandoned. His son Cory became a good man. I guess we can tell that from Gabe's speech at the end, Troy went to heaven. Earlier in the book, Gabe said he saw Troy's name in St. Peter's list, and at the end he was opening the gates. That's what i kinda thought.
The character that best fits the "tragic hero" is Willy Loman. He suffered a great deal but we could tell he was a noble man. He was stepped on by society and crushed. He pursued the American Dream and that's what led him to his demise.
yea, Running scared is a recent movie..
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